Proposal Review Transcript
Meeting Date: January 20th, 2026 - 5:30 PM
Attendees: Derek Gibbs, Sean Urgel, Oscar Gonzales, Kelly (listening)
Sean Urgel [00:23]: Hello.
Oscar Gonzales [00:24]: I'm dead.
Derek Gibbs [00:26]: I think we need another Filipino on the team, so I'm. I'm just waiting.
Sean Urgel [00:31]: Nice. Wait, what happened to the counter?
Oscar Gonzales [00:33]: Okay.
Sean Urgel [00:36]: I like how. I don't know if I should say this with Firefights, but our team is growing stereotypes. Like, the engineering thing is like 80% Filipinos. Than the. The product team is like Asian.
Derek Gibbs [00:54]: Asian.
Derek Gibbs [00:54]: Asian women. Yeah, we. We have a type, dude. Jay and I definitely have a type. I'm. I'm breaking. I'm like both breaking the mold and.
Derek Gibbs [01:03]: Not breaking the mold at all because. So this girl Alyssa, who's at Wharton, reached out to me, but she's.
Derek Gibbs [01:09]: Gonna be like, maybe be like a.
Derek Gibbs [01:10]: PM semester in 10pm so we've got all three.
Derek Gibbs [01:14]: She's like the unicorn, you know, like all three. Filipino, Asian woman, PM.
Sean Urgel [01:21]: Nice.
Derek Gibbs [01:24]: Yeah. So let me just send it out as a follow up so that it can. So we should be good. Okay, guys, this is. Quickly. Oscar, thank you for joining, man. I know it's like outside of normal time.
Oscar Gonzales [01:36]: So.
Derek Gibbs [01:38]: Let me do something here. I've been working inside of Claude and Cursor and stuff to cook up another version of the Oak harbor proposal. So let me just get that uploaded and we can look at it. One second. So also, it'd be great. I think Oscar, between you and Sean, can triangulate. I walked Sean through this and Sean's.
Derek Gibbs [02:08]: Like, yeah, dude, like a week.
Derek Gibbs [02:09]: Give us like five to seven days.
Derek Gibbs [02:10]: We're good. So I'll let you guys. Let you guys duke it out. Sorry, I don't have enough time. He's like, we don't have enough time. We need more.
Sean Urgel [02:20]: Sorry. Yeah, I think when I meant five to seven days, I was just thinking about, like when they gave us.
Derek Gibbs [02:25]: You can't take it back now, Sean.
Derek Gibbs [02:27]: You can't take it back.
Derek Gibbs [02:30]: I directly forwarded that clip. I quoted it, I put it in blocks.
Derek Gibbs [02:34]: I directly sent that to them. That's our proposal. Five to seven days.
Sean Urgel [02:39]: Yeah.
Oscar Gonzales [02:42]: And one thing I think I've learned is every time that we say I was going to take this, we should multiply it with two.
Sean Urgel [02:50]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [02:51]: 10 to 14 days, we're good.
Sean Urgel [02:54]: And then again. And then one.
Derek Gibbs [02:58]: Yeah. All right, let me get. Let me get you guys a link.
Derek Gibbs [03:00]: Hold on.
Sean Urgel [03:01]: Yeah, my brain got destroyed. My definition of discovery phase became the actual. It became our accelerated discovery phase.
Derek Gibbs [03:11]: We've infected with our own poison, you know. Okay, so I just sent something. It's. I realize now that it's in a doc. It's quite long. I was hoping. I wanted to make it shorter, but actually now it ended up being long.
Derek Gibbs [03:31]: So a few things here that we need to. Need to land. I think so. Oscar.
Derek Gibbs [03:36]: Actually, can you look in the original proposal, Sean?
Sean Urgel [03:42]: Yeah, sure.
Oscar Gonzales [03:43]: What's up?
Derek Gibbs [03:45]: Because Oscar left some comments that I thought were.
Sean Urgel [03:49]: Were.
Derek Gibbs [03:51]: Good and I want to make sure we pull it when I re created it. I. I incorporated that in there. But then as I tried to redraft. Redraft it with like an updated approach. It's a little clunky and long. I gotta fix it.
Oscar Gonzales [04:16]: But do you maybe you want me to go through my comments or the general.
Derek Gibbs [04:21]: Yeah, give me.
Derek Gibbs [04:22]: Yeah, yeah, go for it.
Oscar Gonzales [04:25]: Yeah. I think the thing that is most relevant for you, Sean, is that. Well, the proposal, as I was reading it, calls out three distinct users that they all kind of like have their own role on this thing. And one thing that, you know, it was very clear, for example, with Agentic or anything that is like a platform where we are the middleman. And then, you know, there's, you know, this person does something and then this person does something. Like it's. You need to. Every time that we have more than one user, which is, you know, not like Journey for example, because Journey is just one that has one user.
Derek Gibbs [05:12]: Yeah.
Oscar Gonzales [05:13]: We need to multiply the amount of screens and the amount of flows.
Sean Urgel [05:18]: Yeah.
Oscar Gonzales [05:19]: Not necessarily by 2 because that's not really fair. It's more like 1.8 the amount of screens and the amount of thought that needs to go through.
Sean Urgel [05:28]: Yeah.
Oscar Gonzales [05:29]: Also like making sure that orchestrating the processes and all that stuff. And then one thing that I got from the proposal is greets. As we already have this thing on web, let's just put it on mobile. But the context in which these people are in are very important. Which is a receiver and shipper. A shipper might always be. Most of the time we're going to be sitting down on a computer, but a receiver might be mobile. Right. So inputting a bunch of data that is already web, it doesn't, you know, it collides with what the context are in. So we need to revisit. Okay. What are the jobs to be done for those people are what does the interface need to look like? So it's not just as easy as just taking a look at what they have and then just pointing it over.
Oscar Gonzales [06:23]: So it's not my like general reviews. Like there's other things that I, I would maybe change and make sure that we're not over indexing on numbers and stuff like that. But, but that's my general. Over my general take on this.
Sean Urgel [06:38]: Yeah, I agree as well. I mean, I think most of your concerns it will be addressed like during discovery. I think, you know, like that's how should I say. Yeah, it's gonna be addressed during discovery, I think. I didn't look at the original proposal just yet, but I feel like the original.
Derek Gibbs [07:04]: What you're in right now is the original.
Sean Urgel [07:06]: Yeah. Do you think the original proposal has too much details, for example, like the recipients shipper. I know, I think it's abstracted enough.
Oscar Gonzales [07:18]: Where.
Sean Urgel [07:21]: Yeah, it feels abstracted enough to me. Don't you think, Oscar?
Oscar Gonzales [07:25]: Yeah, I think so. I mean it's way better than like, you know, remember like the very first ones?
Sean Urgel [07:32]: Yeah, we'll do the polar for you.
Oscar Gonzales [07:34]: Yeah, yeah, it's abstracted enough, but it gives enough context to the client to be like, okay, this is what I'm paying for. So I like that. I have some reservations on actually putting numbers like dollar amounts if we don't know.
Derek Gibbs [07:50]: I have an update for that which is that I think I'm going to quote a monthly amount range because I feel pretty good about like what that.
Derek Gibbs [07:59]: Tends to be and then say, and then it's kind of like how many.
Derek Gibbs [08:02]: Months you want to be building for before you launch is like up to you. It's like a scope question. Right. And so it leaves the actual number open ended. Like we're giving some range so that they can start to run some.
Derek Gibbs [08:14]: Because I think it'd be tough for.
Derek Gibbs [08:15]: Them to say like, hey, you pay us 50,000 and they have no idea. Like are they, are we going to come back with like this is going to be a million dollars or something right after the month, you know, so that's how I was going to bridge it.
Oscar Gonzales [08:29]: Okay, cool.
Derek Gibbs [08:30]: If you want to take, if you want to take like maybe 2 minutes, 2 or 3 minutes, quickly review the second tab.
Derek Gibbs [08:41]: I thought I was making it better.
Derek Gibbs [08:42]: I ended up just making it longer. So it's a little bit clunky, but.
Derek Gibbs [08:45]: Take a look at it.
Derek Gibbs [08:47]: I tried to incorporate your input and avoid some of the pitfalls that we originally had to look at it, see what we think is good from there, or we want to kind of simplify down. It's a bit too long. But I tried to do a turn on that based on what we talked about.
Oscar Gonzales [09:04]: Yeah, nice. Well, we can also mention, I mean the problem is not the actual numbers is maybe like this could be Estimates on similar projects that we have done. We have done. We say this is what a similar project would look like, but obviously it depends on your specific use cases and all that stuff are your small parts. But I think it makes sense for them to see the numbers. But, but I just wanted to make sure that we have the lead way of saying if we end up with maybe something that is even less than what they're asking, you know, like breaking down all the features that they have on web and then just, okay, we don't need this. We don't need this. We don't need this. They might actually end up paying less. Less, to be fair.
Oscar Gonzales [09:52]: I mean, obviously we don't want that in my.
Derek Gibbs [09:55]: I mean, I. It's not even a bad thing because I think the sooner that we just get it launched and then it's kind of like if you go down and I can pull it up as well, but you can take a look is like. I wanted to say. Again, the way that we, I think about it is that we have this discovery phase. Discovery and definition. You can come up with a better name. There's a checkpoint.
Derek Gibbs [10:16]: There's like a build phase, which is.
Derek Gibbs [10:18]: Kind of like you're going to have a few options after we've sort of defined this about what feels right for the launch. You know, if the bundle, you. You can't.
Derek Gibbs [10:28]: As much as we want to do.
Derek Gibbs [10:29]: Incrementally, you can't really do that at the very beginning because there's like a minimum set of things that all need to work together. So there's a minimum thing that you kind of need to help us define and prioritize.
Derek Gibbs [10:38]: We launch that and then once that's.
Derek Gibbs [10:40]: Live, we will move into this, like, retainer phase, where it's just an ongoing kind of iteration type of thing. And it's more of, you know, average rates for that, average rates for the retainer phase, you know. Yeah, yeah, they can do the math themselves if they want.
Oscar Gonzales [10:55]: Yeah, I like that approach of finding out specifically what are the core jobs to be done. And then also features, like, core features, which is part of the. I'm personally, I'm calling it the definition phase because it's like more of a definition thing. But we, I wanted to ask you, like, where. Where does the thing that we showed yesterday fit in projects like this? If you have thought about it, but this is outside of what we're talking about right now. But yeah, like, the definition phase will uncover those core. Core features and then the blueprint like the visual blueprint that I have in mind will. Will show the client. Like, how would that feel? Like, in experience.
Derek Gibbs [11:39]: Yep. So let me. Let me pull something up. I thought I was making it better. Looking at it now, it's.
Derek Gibbs [11:47]: It's, like, structured, but maybe it's not.
Derek Gibbs [11:49]: I don't know.
Derek Gibbs [11:50]: It could be cleaner. What I tried to do is I.
Derek Gibbs [11:52]: Wanted to recount, like, what I think is going to happen, where it's like, one part of this is that we. They already have put together stuff that's floating around. We need to just do this, like, capture what they're already thinking, just, like, absorb it. Because what I don't want to do is like, hey, we're coming in, starting completely from scratch. And like, you've never thought about this before. They didn't have the existing stuff, so, like, I want to make sure we absorb it. There's some, like, research stuff that we need to do, you know, like interviews or, you know, some other. Other types of things. There's some synthesis.
Derek Gibbs [12:25]: Again, maybe.
Sean Urgel [12:26]: I don't.
Derek Gibbs [12:26]: Maybe if that's not exactly the right thing to call out, we can be more descriptive about what that. What that means.
Derek Gibbs [12:31]: There's some prioritization that we need to.
Derek Gibbs [12:33]: Kind of go through. And then there's actually this, like, where the visual blueprint and all that stuff actually shows up, which is like, okay, we've. We've sort of, like, done all this stuff. We've kind of prioritized, and here's like, the blueprint for what this thing is going to look like, you know, on the. The option that you selected. And maybe what, I don't know, Oscar.
Derek Gibbs [12:49]: Is like, does the visual blueprint include.
Derek Gibbs [12:52]: Everything from, like, essential to comprehensive?
Derek Gibbs [12:57]: And then they pick.
Derek Gibbs [12:58]: They sort of say, I want to go this far down. Or do we need to define, okay, what we're. What we're looking for in the visual. What you're seeing in the visual blueprint is just the essential stuff. Or, like. Or it's the comic site. So that I don't really know.
Sean Urgel [13:11]: Actually, before Oscar answers, I wanted to talk about this essential, core and comprehensive. You know, based on our previous conversations, like, regardless of how long we decide to work with them, we're always, like, we're always going to recommend building the MVP and then the next features. Right. So I. These separate options even apply. Like, it wouldn't make sense.
Derek Gibbs [13:36]: Right.
Derek Gibbs [13:37]: You think, well, the reason I wanted to do it this way is that we have a bit of control and.
Derek Gibbs [13:44]: It'S kind of like the popcorn pricing.
Derek Gibbs [13:46]: Thing, where we can, I think, push people to take the path that we.
Derek Gibbs [13:50]: Want, which is the mix of like the cost and the features and the timeline.
Oscar Gonzales [13:54]: Yes.
Derek Gibbs [13:54]: I, I think, you know, you can.
Derek Gibbs [13:56]: Make the essential like very aggressive, which is that like, hey, we could launch this in April or, you know, or something. It's like very bare bones and we can continue to iterate after it. It's the fastest way. In some ways, that's actually the what is probably the best for us. Like, yeah, we can keep it as streamlined as possible, but it's probably going.
Derek Gibbs [14:13]: To be too aggressive for them. Comprehensive is going to be what they.
Derek Gibbs [14:16]: Want, but we can pad the cost, you know, to dissuade them from like doing a big bang launch, you know, do everything by end of June. And it's like this huge monster and probably where we land is like, we have this kind of balanced thing. Like we're going to try and give you the essential stuff to start.
Derek Gibbs [14:34]: You can actually launch it.
Derek Gibbs [14:35]: And if you wanted to, we can pre budget for some capacity after it, for some like, incremental refinement or something. So it's more of like a, we feel like we're giving them options when in reality we're kind of.
Sean Urgel [14:48]: Like, yeah, essentially the same thing. Right. Because if they choose core or comprehensive, our release plan would be still the same. Like, we still have an mvp. We still urge them to basically.
Derek Gibbs [14:59]: Yeah, the roadmap in theory would look the same.
Derek Gibbs [15:01]: It just depends on where is the actual launch. You know, it's actually sooner or later. Right. But the, the roadmap of what we're building is actually the same. Yeah. Yeah.
Oscar Gonzales [15:10]: Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah. Are we, are we also doing, so are we doing that, like, middle step where we finish the definition or the discovery phase? Definition phase. And then at the end, we kind of show them this artifact that is the visual blueprint, and then they make a decision on whether or not they want to actually build it or, like, we're confident that they just want to go ahead and like, do the entire thing.
Derek Gibbs [15:42]: No, I, I, I was thinking that. And this is where I have a.
Derek Gibbs [15:45]: Question, Oscar, which is, yes, I baked in that we have this checkpoint spot, right. Like, hey, we're going to take all the things we found. We're going to make this visual blueprint. And the question that I had is.
Derek Gibbs [15:55]: Like, is the visual blueprint an opinionated decision that we make about this?
Derek Gibbs [16:00]: Is what it's going to look at? It's one scope or is it like.
Derek Gibbs [16:04]: Here'S the visual blueprint.
Derek Gibbs [16:06]: We can make some about like how much of this we are going to do for launch. Like this part of it is going to be ready for launch or it's going to be the whole thing, the same visual blueprint support subsets of these options.
Derek Gibbs [16:25]: That's a question.
Oscar Gonzales [16:26]: Perfect. That's a good question. The way I see it is the visual blueprint will give the client enough for them to. To be excited about building with us, but not the entire comprehensive thing. It falls maybe if we put it in this thing, it falls maybe in between essential and core, but it's mostly to the essential. So like in the case of their specific use case, it's just showing what the experience would between starting a shipment to delivery and then seeing how those two users like work with each other. It might actually be easy. Like it might actually be an easy thing. I don't know yet, but that's what I'm looking to do. If it's easy, then maybe we can layer other things. Like what happens if you do, I don't know, like multiple shipments at the same time.
Oscar Gonzales [17:25]: Like all these different use cases that they might have. But. But the idea is to give them enough for them to see that the thing like at least functioning in terms of the core features and then go. Go with that and to build. But it's not like the UI phase or the design phase that's supposed to take care of the comprehensive, what I call, the way you call the comprehensive line item there, which is everything. Like what happens with all the possible use cases that each user could go with and now the other.
Derek Gibbs [18:01]: Does that happen?
Derek Gibbs [18:02]: Okay, got it.
Oscar Gonzales [18:03]: I got it.
Derek Gibbs [18:03]: Does that happen for the design phase?
Derek Gibbs [18:05]: Is that separate or that ends up being integrated into the builds like that.
Derek Gibbs [18:13]: It's a more of like a continuous like design and builds is like discovery. Design and build is iterating through like the rest of. If we do this over February, March, April, May, you know, is some mix of additional discovery for like the other features, you know, design and then the actual build. But on an ongoing basis. We're not carving out a separate incremental design stage after definition, is that right?
Oscar Gonzales [18:42]: That's kind of what I was picturing. We do still need the design phase in terms of. Because the definition phase is supposed to take care of at least 70%. I would picture maybe 70% of the core features and the kind of like showing what this thing the solution could look like for what they're trying. What the jobs to be done are. But it's not to be, it's not supposed to be 100% comprehensive in terms of the blueprint. Right. Because on the, some of the flows that we will create, those will be just like literally static things in figma and those will be taken by the designer, the UI designer on the design phase to compose the pages for those flows. Right. But there needs to be a design phase that just completely takes care of everything. So like, I don't know, off registration.
Derek Gibbs [19:40]: Okay, hold on.
Derek Gibbs [19:41]: So, but for the design phase.
Derek Gibbs [19:43]: I guess it's a matter of.
Derek Gibbs [19:45]: Concurrency, which is that there's design work.
Derek Gibbs [19:49]: That needs to happen. Right. Which is the actual UI design, but.
Derek Gibbs [19:54]: The U is the UI design for.
Derek Gibbs [19:56]: The, for the rest of the stuff. Like can it happen in parallel with the build? If that makes sense. Like for like for example. Yeah, yeah.
Derek Gibbs [20:05]: So that was really my question is.
Derek Gibbs [20:07]: Like, do we need to have a definition that's like four weeks and then it's like a dedicated design which is like another four weeks before build can.
Derek Gibbs [20:13]: Start or can we do like, hey.
Derek Gibbs [20:15]: The first features that we know are going to need screens and kind of go through this process of like the.
Derek Gibbs [20:20]: Screens and then we get some refinement.
Derek Gibbs [20:22]: And that stuff and it's like, okay, now it gets handed off to engineering and it's like this more continuous type of thing. Like I know that there's more design work to do, but it feels like it's happening more continuously with, you know, we already have like the engineering.
Oscar Gonzales [20:35]: Team stood up right before Sean goes, because I want to hear what he says also, because this also impacts engineering. Because obviously Sean wants to have the finalized designs before he starts implementing. But is there a question behind that question in terms of do you think, are you, do you have a, do you think we have a risk of meeting their deadline, which I think is June, if we don't have those concurrent things happening at the same time?
Derek Gibbs [21:07]: I think I actually, I think it's a, it's is. I think it comes more from the.
Derek Gibbs [21:15]: Fact that in situations where we've tried to front load the design.
Derek Gibbs [21:21]: Things inevitably.
Derek Gibbs [21:23]: End up having to change. And so like you set a timeline, assuming you could fully front load the design and then you do the build and then things change or like, oh, we didn't quite get it right and then you end up like you're behind. Right. Versus baking it in that like we have this process like we're not going to start developing stuff until We've like kind of gone through this process.
Derek Gibbs [21:44]: Like imagine like if we could do agentic kind of the way we've been.
Derek Gibbs [21:47]: Doing it, but without this accelerated rebuild bullshit. And from the beginning where it's like.
Derek Gibbs [21:52]: We'Ve scoped it out, we've defined the.
Derek Gibbs [21:53]: Edge, like this is the behaviors, all that stuff. Here's like the map of all the flows. There's this process of needing to do the UI definition. And like this is what it's going to be is the behavior.
Oscar Gonzales [22:02]: Right.
Derek Gibbs [22:03]: We get sign off that gets passed to engineering to sort of do and then there's like some testing. But all of that's kind of happening on a continuous basis. Right. Like it.
Derek Gibbs [22:13]: I could see a world like even.
Derek Gibbs [22:15]: With agentic that we front loaded all the design and then they were like, yeah, that's good.
Derek Gibbs [22:19]: And then we get to the build.
Derek Gibbs [22:20]: And then they're testing it and it's like, oh, I changed my mind. It's like it's different. Right. Like I think inevitably that it happens because you don't until you're seeing.
Derek Gibbs [22:29]: It and testing it.
Derek Gibbs [22:30]: Like it's a little bit different.
Oscar Gonzales [22:32]: Yeah, yeah. And then just before Sean goes, I think that the reason why I kind of pictured design being.
Sean Urgel [22:44]: Like.
Oscar Gonzales [22:46]: Deconstructed into UX design and UI design or just the design phase is because what I was trying to do is I was trying to in the definition phase. I was trying to use design to catch most of the things that we would have not caught at the time that we sign a contract to build. If that makes sense.
Sean Urgel [23:07]: Like.
Oscar Gonzales [23:07]: Yep. I'm sure that if I create, if we go with this client, I'm sure we create something for them and we create the visual blueprint which is the prototype at the end of the definition or the discovery phase.
Derek Gibbs [23:23]: Sure.
Oscar Gonzales [23:23]: It's not going to be 100% comprehensive. Like there might be things that I missed or like things like that. But at least it's supposed to take care of 60, 70% of the scope creep that we have that is really massive.
Sean Urgel [23:38]: Right.
Oscar Gonzales [23:38]: The older scope creep might actually be lower. So hopefully that makes sense. But yeah. Curious what Sean has to say.
Sean Urgel [23:48]: Yeah, I think to answer your question, Sterek, I think this might be a good time to show the diagram. Right. Oscar, the one we had in Excalidra. Let me share it real quick. I think this kind of relates, I guess this is the part we didn't get to talk about last Friday. Sorry, was it Two Fridays ago. Which would basically be like what happens after the discovery. Right. Because you're talking about concurrency after the discovery phase or the design sprint. We split up all the tasks into multiple features. Let's say in this project we're going to have five features. Each feature goes through. We define the features that needs to be built. Each of them goes through research phase or a UX phase. It goes to delivery. The client has to review and once the UI is approved, the engineer can deliver.
Sean Urgel [24:50]: So we're not front loading. Like, I don't think it's a good idea to. I don't think it's possible to front load all the design like every single.
Derek Gibbs [25:00]: At the Totally.
Derek Gibbs [25:01]: We've tried to do that in the past, right?
Sean Urgel [25:03]: Yeah. It doesn't work. Right. Doesn't work because it always changes. So I think a good idea would front load the design per feature so that we can consider the designer's time finished once it reaches the engineering part. Right. So that's how we do things concurrently.
Derek Gibbs [25:19]: Yep. Now the way I think I had. It's so funny, I was like literally also in excalidraw. Right. The way that I was thinking about this as well. This is exactly right. But one way that I think we could do it a little bit better is that the reality is like it looks something like this. Let me just share. Right.
Derek Gibbs [25:39]: Can you see?
Sean Urgel [25:41]: Yes.
Derek Gibbs [25:42]: So like this is like.
Derek Gibbs [25:43]: Feature one, you know, feature one. Right. But like while you're doing the actual engineering build of that feature after it's gone through UI approval.
Oscar Gonzales [25:57]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [25:57]: You know, design is already is working on feature too.
Sean Urgel [26:00]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [26:01]: So it's this flow, this kind of flow thing and there's probably some looping back. Right. You might get something where it's like, oh, we heard something and we need to kind of fix it and just. It's not going to be a perfect slowdown.
Derek Gibbs [26:12]: But you can think of this as.
Derek Gibbs [26:13]: Like, this is, I don't know, week, you know, week two or something. I don't know.
Sean Urgel [26:20]: Yeah, I agree. Our diagrams are pretty much the same, but I think maybe since we're an agency, I don't know if we want to enforce some rules. So let me share my Excalidro again. So we basically have the same idea, but do we want to enforce this client review phase where we say like, hey, once you sign off on this, you know, if you want any revisions, that's more time, that's more money, you know, just to protect our time and their time Right.
Derek Gibbs [26:49]: So yeah, we do. I mean, we could say, look, if it's really important to you that it's different, we can do that. We can be flexible in how we do it.
Derek Gibbs [26:56]: But it's going to pull from this like, well of time that you have to work on other stuff. You know what I mean? So if you want to spend the entire like four weeks like churning on the same feature, like, you know, I think we just need to. One, we need to do a better job of like, I always had to do this in consulting. Like, you force them to make a.
Derek Gibbs [27:20]: Decision, you document that decision so you.
Derek Gibbs [27:22]: Can surface it back up to be like, you guys wanted to do this and then that we're also really clear about the implications of like, you can spend more time on this. But in order to do this, we're supposed to be on track by already working on feature three. Right. Whatever. Whatever that is. Like, and you push it out, something's going to shift. We push it out. Either we have to push it outside.
Derek Gibbs [27:39]: Of the launch or we need you.
Derek Gibbs [27:41]: To deprioritize something else in order to make space for this. Or you say it's okay, everything's important and so I'm just gonna tack on an extra month to do whatever, you know.
Sean Urgel [27:54]: Yeah, exactly.
Derek Gibbs [27:55]: So we just need to, we need to.
Derek Gibbs [27:58]: One, I think if we're organized and makes it easier to manage them. Yeah, right. Because there's not all this fuzzy mixing of all the features and everything. And it's like, oh, what? You know, I think a worth very kind of regimented and organized. And then we force them to make the decision and we say, you can.
Derek Gibbs [28:13]: Do one of these three things.
Derek Gibbs [28:13]: And this is the implication that it has you know, you can deprioritize, you can add more scope, you can add resourcing if you want to hit the same timeline up to you. Like, we're flexible, but that's what, you know, those are the options, basically.
Sean Urgel [28:27]: Exactly. But I guess another thing to continue that question. I guess that does make sense. But then when it comes to the.
Oscar Gonzales [28:37]: Contract.
Sean Urgel [28:39]: Like we're just gonna push it out and say like, oh, these are the stuff that could push out. Do you want to renew? So we could continue working on these items kind of thing.
Derek Gibbs [28:50]: Yeah, I.
Derek Gibbs [28:52]: You rephrase the question one more time.
Sean Urgel [28:54]: I guess, you know, since we're doing like a fixed contract with a fixed scope. Sorry, I don't know how to phrase the question.
Derek Gibbs [29:09]: I'll assume I'm Understanding the way that.
Derek Gibbs [29:11]: I do is like when, at the time that we do enter into the fixed contract, fixed scope, after the discovery, and we should have kind of defined.
Derek Gibbs [29:19]: And should roughly have an idea of like these are the features.
Derek Gibbs [29:22]: Right. This is roughly how we think we're going to sequence and deliver it. Right.
Derek Gibbs [29:27]: And we should almost kind of have like a pace schedule.
Derek Gibbs [29:31]: Right. Like if we, I think if we had that for something like Agentic or even Journey, it'd be helpful.
Sean Urgel [29:35]: Right.
Derek Gibbs [29:35]: Like, we kind of know this is the cadence and like, because they could.
Derek Gibbs [29:38]: Be like, okay, we're in UI delivery.
Derek Gibbs [29:40]: You know, we need to get client review for UI delivery and they haven't gotten back to us for two weeks. Right. Like that actually delays the whole thing. Right. Like we. And that's not our fault. So I think we have like a.
Derek Gibbs [29:52]: Target cadence that we're going to be doing this against.
Sean Urgel [29:55]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [29:56]: And if they're not meeting that for.
Derek Gibbs [29:58]: Some reason because they're kind of doing more churns than they expected or they're holding it up or whatever, then I think what we do is we document it and like kind of give them this option via email and we get a decision.
Derek Gibbs [30:11]: And really an email constitutes a contract. You really think about it.
Derek Gibbs [30:14]: Right. So if we get a clear statement that's like, look, you know, at the current pace or whatever, it's like with this, like we're not going to be able to meet the timelines. Like we need to make a decision about these things, about how you want to, you know, do that. I think that's sufficient to enforce like changes from the quote, fixed scope in the contract. As long as it is documented, right?
Sean Urgel [30:33]: Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering, you know, after the discovery. Sorry, Oscar, after the discovery and we have like the plan, essentially. I think we can utilize the linear board to show these feature in phases and also give them the option like, oh, if you want things done concurrently, we have to hire another engineer to like, you know, and then we can increase the pricing and the staffing.
Derek Gibbs [30:58]: Yeah, like basically you basically have.
Derek Gibbs [31:00]: One with the staffing that were roughly planning. We didn't build it in there, but roughly planning. It's kind of like you get one of these like parallel tracks going.
Derek Gibbs [31:11]: Yeah, you have UX and.
Derek Gibbs [31:14]: You know, development and like the testing, like that's happening, but that's just like one track.
Sean Urgel [31:20]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [31:21]: And so there's kind of a rate limit how quickly you can move with just that track. Like if you want to move Faster than that. Then you need to sort of spin up a whole new type of thing, right? Like a whole another track and that's additional resourcing and everything. So.
Derek Gibbs [31:38]: Yeah, so. So really, and I want to clarify all this makes sense. We can put some of this thinking into it.
Derek Gibbs [31:44]: This is stuff more that we can talk about because ultimately what we need to land is the discovery, like contract. Like all we're pitching them on right now is to say we want to.
Derek Gibbs [31:54]: Do this discovery phase inside of it.
Derek Gibbs [31:57]: We need to do, we need to get a few things done. Like we're doing this definition. We also need to do this technical validation. And so Sean, it'd be good to like make sure that you feel like we've identified, like these are the things that we need to know at the end of it that we can generate this plan. Essentially. We know the features, they prioritize it. We know what systems we're going to need to integrate with. We roughly know like the architecture and stuff. We haven't maybe covered 100% of the features, but we know like 80% of it. Like, and then we can feel confident that we feel confident and they feel confident. That's like, yes, like, this is right. You can go and build it. Like, that's really what we need to land on.
Derek Gibbs [32:36]: And so even if there's more design work that needs to happen and that and we can push it out into.
Derek Gibbs [32:42]: The actual build phase, really any work that needs to happen that we can.
Derek Gibbs [32:46]: Push out to the build phase is fine as long as we can get to a point that we actually feel confident about the effort and time and scope to build. That's really because I don't want to make. There's a world where we like make the definition phase so big that it's going to be hard for them to get over that hump, you know, like Oscar. So this is like, let's chat about it and if you have other thoughts, like if I put you like a full time design on this definition phase, then that initial contract is like $80,000. And I think it's just going to be a big hurdle to get them to commit to that. Even though we know it's like all the same amount of work.
Derek Gibbs [33:19]: But to get them to commit to that upfront before they get a kind of plan for like, what is the build gonna look like? It's probably gonna be too much. So I feel like we're bordering on the upper limit of like, yes, it's worth it to do this diligence and we can feel confident about the build going forward. So those are the constraints that I'm trying to triangulate between. I want to make sure we don't get screwed by committing something and that we're not rushing. But we should only do as much as we need to land at this build plan that we feel confident about.
Oscar Gonzales [33:51]: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Just reacting to some of the things that you guys said. I think the thing that Sean was seeing here, that works for feature by feature releases. I think once you have an app and an interface, feature by feature makes complete sense. That's kind of how SaaS works. You have already an app, you build a feature, then it gets released and all that stuff for something that we're starting with nothing, there's no interface, or we have to do some backtrack and see, this is actually what the jobs to be done for somebody like a receiver or a shaper, we kind of need to know what is the AI, I'm sorry, the information architecture of that application. We know how many pages are going to be. We need to know what is it?
Oscar Gonzales [34:41]: What are the core, the actual core features and how that plays out. So what I was picturing with the blueprint, the visual blueprint, is that like, if I were to do this with Journey, for example, the thing that I would show, forget any branding, anything that has to do with like colors or anything like that, it's literally this is a page. And then the core job to be done is to blog and talk. Right? That's literally two things. So I'm going to show that here. Sean then takes this and says, okay, the application has three pages. It needs three core pages that has inner pages on them. And then we extract the features from there. That's technically what Elizabeth is doing right now with Gentex. She's looking at the design and then composing the tickets based on the design. Right.
Oscar Gonzales [35:41]: So that's kind of what I'm picturing with this, is that before were not doing any of this. We're actually doing it in the design phase, which is when we already had the scope locked. So that's what I'm trying to upload is that UX information architecture, what are the core features and all that stuff to the definition phase. So that we know, okay, we're building only three pages, our core pages. There are only these things that we need to do because if we start by feature, we know that for a Journey, we need to log something. But that feature, where does that feature Live and what. In what context? In what shell? And what page does that live Right in what page does that. How do users start?
Oscar Gonzales [36:25]: Like, those are the things that I'm trying to answer in the definition phase, if that makes sense.
Derek Gibbs [36:33]: Makes sense.
Sean Urgel [36:37]: Cool. So I think.
Oscar Gonzales [36:38]: I think what we can do, we can show that, I don't know, actually things. I don't have artifacts to show because it would be easier to show something like this to someone and say, okay, this is what the virtual blueprint would look like. But I don't have that. So, yeah, it's like, trust me, bro.
Derek Gibbs [37:00]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [37:01]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [37:01]: I mean, I think if we can articulate the process.
Derek Gibbs [37:03]: Well, let's start with this, the proposal doc.
Derek Gibbs [37:06]: I think it might be help.
Derek Gibbs [37:07]: I could imagine that it could be helpful. I can try and do this where, like, I convert it to a deck where we can make it a little bit more visual. Right. Where we can. We can pull some screenshots or some. No decks. Jay. I mean, that's fine. I don't care that much. But Oscar, why don't you. And then, Kelly, I know you're like, listening in, but, like, why don't you.
Derek Gibbs [37:30]: Directly look at this?
Derek Gibbs [37:32]: So I tried to chunk out what I think needed to be done into something that's digestible for them. But let's look at it and refine it. That's one thing. So if you can just directly own that.
Derek Gibbs [37:44]: The second thing is with.
Derek Gibbs [37:48]: Let's assume we magically find time for you, Oscar, somehow, I don't know where it's going to come from. Let's assume it. But if you have someone like you, that's half time.
Derek Gibbs [38:00]: Can we. Under what assumptions are we able to.
Derek Gibbs [38:03]: Do this in four weeks? Kind of. And get to the point that we feel comfortable with? Right.
Derek Gibbs [38:08]: And so if that means that we.
Derek Gibbs [38:09]: Have an assumption to say, hey, we're really only primarily going to focus on receivers, that's like Persona number one. That's. That could represent 75% of the focus. Secondary is, you know, shippers, everyone else.
Derek Gibbs [38:24]: We can kind of revisit that after.
Derek Gibbs [38:26]: And we can. If it's important, then we can add it. Like, what I know there's a real. There's going to be a capacity consideration. We have enough time to do all this stuff. And so if we kind of use the time frame and roughly the budget that we have, like, as the. As the base.
Sean Urgel [38:41]: What.
Derek Gibbs [38:42]: What are the assumptions that we need.
Derek Gibbs [38:43]: To bake into this to feel comfortable about getting what done, what you need to get done, that makes Sense.
Oscar Gonzales [38:50]: Yes, it does.
Derek Gibbs [38:52]: So and if there's, if we can't find the bridge between what we need and what we have, then let's come back to it. But I feel like if we can say that we can kind of simplify it and scope it down even for the discovery, we should do that.
Sean Urgel [39:11]: Yeah.
Oscar Gonzales [39:11]: And I think, for what it's worth, I think we can automate most of the things like the research and all that stuff. I think most of the, that's why I was like, when I was reading this. I'm not sure if it would be a true or a good pilot for the, for the definition or the discovery phase that we were talking about. Because most of the stuff is already kind of in a sense is figured out. It's just finding, finding. But if finding, if the stuff that they already figured out, which is the web stuff, what doesn't apply to mobile and then adopting it to mobile, it shouldn't take that long to be fair.
Sean Urgel [39:54]: So.
Oscar Gonzales [39:54]: Yeah, yeah, so, so, so if.
Derek Gibbs [39:59]: You can go in and like directly look at this, tweak it, if you feel confident about the, you know, what we have to do in the time frame that we can do it, then let's put that in as an. I kind of have something down here that's kind of like some assumptions. Let's put that in as an assumption. That way it's kind of like, you know, insurance. Somewhere halfway through, all of a sudden it's like, guys, just kidding. We don't actually have any of this predefined or whatever. We'd be like, you know, were kind of under the assumption that this is, this was already there. So can you take that on directly, Oscar? Like this section?
Oscar Gonzales [40:38]: Yeah, I can do that. Okay. We want to show to them tomorrow.
Derek Gibbs [40:45]: Is that the plan was tomorrow morning. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And also keep in mind, so the loading, the resourcing was going to be a halftime designer and like a halftime PM allocated to this. But you can think of it more as just like that's a fungible group of things, you know, so if we need more design time versus PM time, like it's, you know, we can make that call.
Sean Urgel [41:14]: I have a question. It might affect like, Sorry for rubbing too much between like theory and like the actual doc, but I feel like this might affect the actual document contents. Like, okay, what. At the end of the discovery, what are we expecting them to think of? Sorry, it's hard to give. Put into Words. But for example, like my, in my head, like, the best case scenario is like, we know their budget ahead of time and then we know their business problems. Like, for example, like, oh, our budget's 200k and we need you to do this because we should build our discovery around that, right? Around their budget, around the value it gives and around the suggestion that we give. Because, for example, let's say the budget's actually just 100k.
Sean Urgel [42:14]: Like, oh, for us to actually, like, based on our discovery, to give you value based on your 100k budget. We can only build this because, you know, like, logically speaking, this is how you can earn money or like it streamlines, it streams like your business for 10%, thus making sure your investment of 100,000 makes sense. Right? So for me, it's hard to, it's hard to give that in the discovery phase if we don't even know how much their budget is. Like, how do we even know what to recommend?
Derek Gibbs [42:52]: Well, I think that's one of the things that we have to.
Derek Gibbs [42:55]: I'm not going to put it directly in here, but that's what part of what we should uncover ourselves during the discovery.
Derek Gibbs [43:00]: And I think you tease it out as part of the prioritization.
Derek Gibbs [43:03]: And like, how do you, like, how.
Derek Gibbs [43:05]: Do you choose what you want to include?
Derek Gibbs [43:06]: And like, what's the right budget? Like, we get that out of there. And so, and tactically, like, very practically speaking, like, where we should land really.
Derek Gibbs [43:15]: Is like, we get that information and we can put together a perspective.
Derek Gibbs [43:20]: On like, these are the features that are going to be the best use.
Derek Gibbs [43:23]: Of that budget.
Derek Gibbs [43:25]: And you know, in terms of what it's going to drive for the business, you know, and so I, I would almost think of it as like, imagine someone else did a really good job on the discovery and then they're coming to us for the first time, but they have all of these really great artifacts of like Every, all the APIs are scoped out.
Derek Gibbs [43:46]: Here's all the features, here's a prior.
Derek Gibbs [43:49]: Blueprint, here's a budget.
Derek Gibbs [43:50]: You know, we kind of need to.
Derek Gibbs [43:52]: Prioritize a little bit, but then give us an estimate for the full build.
Derek Gibbs [43:56]: I think we could do that.
Derek Gibbs [43:57]: Right?
Derek Gibbs [43:57]: So it's like what we should just create the things that we would.
Derek Gibbs [44:00]: Want to have received, you know, from someone else.
Sean Urgel [44:03]: Yeah, I agree, because before, like, you know, in the first part, I feel like it's the design step, but I think we need a Separate section first. Like, oh, we need your budget, we need your, like how this would improve your business. You know, it saves blah, blah by 10%, thus resulting in, you know, x increase in money. Then, you know, our product team, Kelly, will have to take a look at that, assess that and based on these value, like on that value, that's when design comes in and. Or like maybe there's another thought where like we could actually increase the revenue by doing something else instead.
Oscar Gonzales [44:47]: Right.
Sean Urgel [44:47]: And then design would be based off that. Because if we just jump right into the design, I feel like we're missing out like the huge part which is, you know, driving value.
Derek Gibbs [44:58]: That's a, It's a fair question.
Derek Gibbs [45:00]: The challenge that I have is can you know the value without first doing the research? Right. Like it's a chicken or the egg problem a little bit. Right. Where I think it happens sequentially.
Derek Gibbs [45:13]: It's like we need to do this.
Derek Gibbs [45:15]: Research, we need to talk to people, we need to understand the drivers of the business. Like, what is this actually going to do? And then, you know, and then the question becomes.
Derek Gibbs [45:26]: And that's really what.
Derek Gibbs [45:28]: Like the pure discovery phase would just.
Derek Gibbs [45:31]: Would just be that even pre.
Derek Gibbs [45:32]: Independent of design. Yeah. Would be like, understand the feet, like what's the problems to solve?
Derek Gibbs [45:38]: Who is it for?
Derek Gibbs [45:39]: What is it worth? And then you use that to kind of do a prioritization of the features against that, but that it's kind of missing some of the design elements of it as well.
Oscar Gonzales [45:55]: Yeah. But one question I have, maybe Derek, is I'm assuming this specific project is interesting because they already have something. Right. They have a web thing. And then some of the things that were, you know, or they're asking us to do is come in and create a mobile. I don't want to say a mobile version of it, but like, yeah, a mobile solution for what they already have.
Sean Urgel [46:20]: Yeah.
Oscar Gonzales [46:21]: I'm curious if we have looked at what they have and then we. As in like maybe you. And then also if they, if a designer already designed the web interface, why didn't they go with that designer to do the mobile? Like there's. Those are maybe questions that obviously you don't have answers to, but those are questions that I would have because if we need to, if they are looking for us to look at the mobile. The web version and then just adopt it to mobile. It seems a very simple project. But if there is this stuff that is like actually wrong with the experience on the web interface, then that it becomes a much bigger issue, right, like where we need to fix the issues that they have on web and then adopt those solutions from mobile.
Sean Urgel [47:20]: Wait, is that what we're doing? We're just translating what they already have into mobile? I thought were gonna, it was.
Derek Gibbs [47:29]: Closer. It's closer to that. It's closer to that.
Derek Gibbs [47:31]: They, they want some.
Derek Gibbs [47:33]: I mean, I think this gets into.
Derek Gibbs [47:35]: One of those things where it's like this is what they're saying and they'd be fine with that. There's a version of it that we know that's like you're kind of, you're not utilizing the, you know, you can do things that are really valuable that you didn't even think about, you know, at this, at that point. And so I think that's the base, right, which is that they have all these tools, create a bill of lading, you know, create a pickup type of thing, service time calculator, density calculator. And this is where they were saying, like some of this stuff is just information, you know, what's the services type of thing? Like they want to be able to surface that some of it is like, you know, these tools. Right. And so, yeah, so I think what I'd want to convey to you is.
Derek Gibbs [48:21]: Like if it was this simple, would we still do a four week discovery?
Derek Gibbs [48:27]: Right. I'm okay if the answer is yes. In fact, it's easier if we say the answer is yes. But let's say we do this for discovery.
Derek Gibbs [48:36]: But actually the build could be like.
Derek Gibbs [48:41]: A month and a half. If it's really just like we have all the services, we know exactly what we need. It's just a matter of like putting it into a form factor. Like that's fine, you know, and that's part of like that actually becomes a benefit to say like we should have this checkpoint because if we really, we might realize it's actually a lot more simple than we thought and like, you know, that's fine. So, so that's one sub point. The other, the other sub point, Oscar, is that the website.
Derek Gibbs [49:09]: Build is being done internally.
Derek Gibbs [49:12]: So it's their own resources. Right, okay, so the reason that they wanted, they're looking for an outside help is because they just don't feel like they have the skills and ability to do this kind of mobile app development in house.
Oscar Gonzales [49:28]: Okay, got it. But to be fair, those things that you're saying tools like create pickup or something like that, we're not coming in and redesigning that thing for web because they already have that solution. We don't want to deal with that. What we want to do is we want to adopt, okay, this is a form that they have here. We want to adopt that to mobile and the context in which that person is in. Yeah, got it. If it's that, yeah, it shouldn't be that hard because it's mostly about putting yourself in the shoes of whoever the user is in the context in which they're in and then designing a solution for that. So to be fair, it shouldn't take that long. However, I've got to be cautious because sometimes like when we go in we realize, wait, this doesn't make sense.
Oscar Gonzales [50:24]: Like, why are you doing it this way? Like, you know.
Derek Gibbs [50:28]: Yeah, totally.
Sean Urgel [50:30]: So.
Derek Gibbs [50:30]: So in my mind it's like, I.
Derek Gibbs [50:31]: Still think like the discovery, roughly as.
Derek Gibbs [50:36]: We have it scoped out is right.
Derek Gibbs [50:38]: Because none of that's wasted work.
Derek Gibbs [50:41]: Right. It's still useful regardless of how complicated or big the build ultimately is. Right. And I think like, if we do all this work up front and like, you know, we had each of these tools defined out as features, whatever, it's prioritized and we kind of know the effort and we know the APIs that each of them consume and all that stuff, then when we get to build, Sean, like, I mean we probably still need to go through like the UI design for the app and then going through it, but it's probably, it's not that much work, you know, if it's just that. And so we might decide when we put together the plan that it's quite, you know, quite quick. Yeah, I kind of want a message that like, hey.
Derek Gibbs [51:22]: We, it's like maybe a little bit hyperbolic but like this could be that.
Derek Gibbs [51:26]: This is like a one month build, you know, it's like another 40k or something like full team, but it's like.
Derek Gibbs [51:32]: Quite simple to do it and it's a lot, you know, or we might.
Derek Gibbs [51:37]: Decide, you might decide I want to do all this other stuff that I've never done before. And so that's going to, it's going to be a lot, right? It's going to be bigger. And so this is why like we having this discovery phase, where we can really nail that down is really important and it's not wasted work regardless of like, we need, we would need to do this anyway, you know.
Sean Urgel [51:55]: Yeah, I mean, regardless of the project, we always need the discovery phase. I think we're probably gonna run into the issue I mean, not really an issue. It's more like the agentic team, every time we talk with them, they're like, oh, yeah, we didn't think about that, you know, let's improve it, you know. So I think that's a good thing to have.
Oscar Gonzales [52:19]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [52:20]: The one thing if you could do.
Derek Gibbs [52:22]: Sean, is directly look at this section.
Sean Urgel [52:24]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [52:25]: Be like, is this, if we do.
Derek Gibbs [52:27]: This, will we have everything we need from like a technical scoping standpoint for the build? Right? Like.
Sean Urgel [52:38]: Yeah, but this is in the context of discovery.
Oscar Gonzales [52:41]: Right?
Derek Gibbs [52:41]: Like, this is in the context of discovery.
Derek Gibbs [52:43]: So the idea is that we would do all this stuff so that.
Derek Gibbs [52:46]: We could land at like, okay, we kind of.
Derek Gibbs [52:48]: It's a combination of like, we know.
Derek Gibbs [52:50]: The APIs and we know this is the services and systems that we need to connect into. And then it's some inter. Intersection against the features that we're deciding to prioritize. You know, like, there's some matrix of those two things. What do we have versus what do we want from the combination of those two things? Like, feel like we have what we need.
Sean Urgel [53:10]: I mean, how do you want me to word it again? On the top of my head, I'm just thinking of the simplest, like, okay, prerequisites, we need this. And then this is what you're going to figure out, but. Or should I make it kind of similar to this, capture, you know, make it a little more even?
Derek Gibbs [53:25]: I was trying to. Because this is the proposal. Like, this is doing two things.
Derek Gibbs [53:28]: Like, this is basically the statement of work and the proposal. So like, the reason I structured it this way is because if we don't.
Derek Gibbs [53:34]: Have a deck, we're gonna need to.
Derek Gibbs [53:36]: Walk through the process that we're gonna go through. And this is kind of the way that I saw through it in my head.
Oscar Gonzales [53:41]: Right.
Derek Gibbs [53:42]: Like, we need to capture as much as we can. We need to go through this inventory of like, all right, you have these 13 tools on the website. Where is it doing that calculation? What systems is it pulling from? Like, we need to kind of do that. We need to kind of do some testing to be like, can we use this? Can we access it? Like, if we wanted this feature or something, like, do we have what we need? And then we did we put together some architecture of like, These are the APIs we'll consume for these features and something like that.
Sean Urgel [54:10]: I don't know. Yeah, I, I mean, are we actually taking everything that they have on the website and putting it on the mobile app?
Derek Gibbs [54:19]: No, because that's what the Product and design, like design track needs to determine.
Sean Urgel [54:25]: Okay, it sounded like.
Derek Gibbs [54:29]: I'm saying like we.
Derek Gibbs [54:30]: I think it's, there's like an intersection, right? There's like what's all available? Because all that's already being surfaced to the website versus like what do we want, what's kind of prioritized to be put in the app. That's important. And then do we have what we need to do it?
Oscar Gonzales [54:44]: Okay, the way I picture it also John, is that we already know what the features are. Like, we already know if were to list out, okay, the user needs to be able to do this, this per user. Like that stuff is already on the website. So what I'm imagining is we go in. It's not truly like a fully full fetched discovery. It's more like a kind of, okay, let's look at what you have and let's adopt those features to mobile environments for those specific users and desktops. But what is important is I might design something on my end that might not be technically feasible. As in like if they have a feature for creating a bill of sale for like a 200 pound, I don't know, shipping or whatever. And they do that in web today.
Oscar Gonzales [55:40]: If, if we want to do the whole Uber thing and like make sure that you can see where the thing is, I might design it that way or I might think that's the solution that we need, but it might not be technically feasible. So it might be like a chicken and neck problem where this is not in relation to this artifact, the proposal, but it's maybe in this particular case it would be nice for us to know what the technical visibilities are before we design or adopt the features to mobile environments. Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [56:14]: So I need to run for a client call so you guys can actually look at this. The second, the tab too. And like Oscar, if you can own just like looking and making sure you feel comfortable with the process and what we've scoped out that we're going to be doing related to the product and design track. Sean, for you, the technical track. I said as a third thing, it's like this business track, which I think relates to what you're saying, Sean. But this is where we like we combine both and prioritize and give them these options, you know.
Sean Urgel [56:42]: Yeah.
Derek Gibbs [56:42]: And, and then the deliverables are like, we're gonna have some total analysis, we're gonna have some visual blueprints and we're gonna have like a brief, like a Build brief, which is like you prioritize. And this is what. It's essentially the contract for the next phase, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Sean Urgel [56:58]: This would be the perfect time to have a direct mv.
Derek Gibbs [57:03]: Well, I'll be, I'll work on it. I'll work on it.
Derek Gibbs [57:05]: And then the only other thing is any assumptions that you feel are necessary.
Derek Gibbs [57:10]: To make the, either of your two sections work, let's just make sure we put that into the assumptions, you know, so if we need assumptions about the number of Personas recovering, we need assumptions about what information is available and that like, we're only assuming, like there's going to be no new services that aren't on the website that we want, on the mobile app or vice versa, whatever it is, you know, then let's put that in there.
Derek Gibbs [57:34]: But if you guys can take like.
Derek Gibbs [57:36]: Maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes to just make sure you read through it and like make direct edits, or if there's something that's really not clear, then you can comment me, because I want to. We need to get this out back to structured like our partner, before we actually review it live, you know, with them tomorrow. And I, I think we added you guys to that already, I recall.
Derek Gibbs [57:59]: Did we?
Sean Urgel [58:02]: Good question.
Oscar Gonzales [58:03]: I saw it.
Derek Gibbs [58:07]: Just in case. I, I. All right, so I gotta drop that.
Sean Urgel [58:11]: Make sense.
Derek Gibbs [58:11]: Can you guys do that the next 15 minutes?
Sean Urgel [58:15]: Sure. Sure.
Oscar Gonzales [58:16]: Okay.
Derek Gibbs [58:16]: Thank you.
Derek Gibbs [58:17]: And Kelly, thank you for listening in. If you have any input or you have like some magical idea that like, solves all of our problems, happily share it.
Derek Gibbs [58:25]: I was just about to. Okay, I'll let you share it.
Sean Urgel [58:29]: I'll go.
Derek Gibbs [58:30]: You can let me know how it goes after. All right. Bye, guys.
Derek Gibbs [58:34]: Bye.
Sean Urgel [58:35]: Bye. Since.